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The Question of Punishment – Part III

The Question of Punishment – Part III

If God doesn’t have to use His power to inflict penalties, if God has actually been using His power to intercede with the destructiveness of sin and in the end He merely lets go and sinners die as a result of their own unhealed condition, then how do we make sense of all the texts in the Bible that speak of fire, brimstone, hell, burning etc?

Let’s look at some of those texts and see what the Bible really teaches:

Isaiah 33:14,15  The sinners in Zion are terrified; trembling grips the godless: “Who of us can dwell with the consuming fire? Who of us can dwell with everlasting burning?” He who walks righteously and speaks what is right, who rejects gain from extortion and keeps his hand from accepting bribes, who stops his ears against plots of murder and shuts his eyes against contemplating evil…

Wait a minute.  What is going on here? The Bible is saying the righteous, not the wicked, are the ones who live in the consuming fire! Do we believe the Bible or has Satan’s lies gotten so deep into our minds, so familiar to our thinking, so comfortable to our lives, that we will close our minds to God’s word in order to hold on to familiar falsehood? Or are you willing to open your mind and examine God’s Word and embrace the truth it contains? Let’s see what the rest of the Bible says.

Exodus 3:2-4 God speaks to Moses at the bush – and what did the bush do? Burned – but did it get consumed? Stephen in Acts 7:30-36 confirms this same account.

Exodus 24:17 God came to Mt Sinai and His presence was described as a “consuming fire” did the elements melt like a nuclear explosion?

2 Chron 5:14 & 2 Chron 7:1-3 Tell us that when Solomon’s Temple was dedicated the Priests couldn’t enter because the brightness of God’s fiery glory was too great – but did the Temple burn down? So was it heat that was keeping the priests out?

Ezekiel 28:14,16 tells us that Lucifer, before his fall, used to walk among the “fiery stones” of God’s presence. Was this fire destructive?

Matthew 17:2 The Mount of Transfiguration, Jesus, in His human body that was still subject to death for it died on the Cross shortly thereafter, is bathed in fire. His face shone like the sun and His clothes were bright white, but did His clothes burn off or did He receive 3rd degree burns?

Duet 4:24 and Hebrews 12:29 Says, “our God is a consuming fire.”

Revelation 22:5 tells us that in the new earth there will be no need for the sun and moon to light the earth for God’s presence will be its light!

What is the lie that Satan has foisted upon us? What is the distortion that all too many have bought into? Isn’t it just this, the place you don’t want to go, the place you don’t want to be for eternity is the place of eternal burnings and consuming fire, in other words, the traditional Christian concept of hell?  And yet the Bible says that this place is God’s very presence, His throne surrounded by a sea of glass mingled with fire (Rev 15:2)!

The righteous will be transformed by this life giving glory – as Moses was after 40 days with God. Moses came down off the mountain and his face was radiating this fiery glory (Ex 34:29-35). But did Moses have 3rd degree burns? No, the fire was not harmful.  But what about the children of Israel?  When they saw Moses what did they do? They begged him to put a veil over his face because this light caused them anguish and suffering. But what kind of suffering? Suffering of mind.  Why? Because their consciences were guilty, because they didn’t value God’s methods and principles, because they preferred lies and selfishness;  the light of heavenly love and truth caused them to suffer.

At the second coming of Christ this same fire that transforms the righteous, as we are changed in a twinkling of an eye, as this mortal puts on immortality, as we are invigorated by this life giving fire, this same fire is described in 2 Thessalonians 2:8 as destroying the man of sin.

But what kind of fire is this? Why doesn’t it consume and turn to ash bushes, buildings, and people? How does it instead transform and heal the righteous, but at the same time cause anguish, discomfort, pain, and destruction of the wicked?  What kind of fire is this?

This is a fire that is to cleanse the earth of sin, a fire that consumes wickedness.  So let me ask you a couple of questions:

What is a book made out of?

What is a table or chair made out of?

What is sin made out of?

The fire at the end is the fire that consumes sin, not material substances. So what is sin made out of? Sin is an idea, attitude, thought, method, or principle and at its root there are two elements that sin is based upon:  Lies and selfishness

Now what is it that consumes and destroys a lie?

The truth!  The Holy Spirit is called the Spirit of truth.

What is it that consumes and destroys selfishness?

Love!  God is Love!

So when God’s Spirit comes it is the Spirit of Truth and Love. At Pentecost, when the Spirit came, the people saw “tongues of fire!”  So why didn’t the house burn down or anyone get injured?

Then why will the wicked suffer when the fires of truth and love burn freely, when these fires of truth and love transform, ennoble, and invigorate the righteous, when the fire of God’s presence is revealed? The Bible does not leave us in doubt, but tells us directly:

2 Thes 2:10  They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

What happens in the mind of those who have rejected truth and cling to falsehood; when the truth of God comes shining through? Torment of mind, anguish of heart, suffering of psyche! And what happens to those whose hearts are filled with selfishness when pure, undiluted love of God comes shining through? Proverbs 25:21,22 and Romans 12:20 tells us that:

“If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink. In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”

What will those who have solidified their minds in lies and who have hardened their hearts in selfishness do when Christ appears and they come face to face with undiluted, infinite truth and love?

Revelation 6:15,16: Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!

Why will they do this? Is God inflicting an external penalty upon them or is their very condition the cause of their suffering when they come into God’s loving and holy presence?

God has actually given us evidence that the fire of His presence consumes sin, not material substances. In Leviticus we read about Aaron’s sons who, as priests, brought unauthorized fire before the Lord. Notice what happens:

Leviticus 10:1-5 Aaron’s sons Nadab and Abihu took their censers, put fire in them and added incense; and they offered unauthorized fire before the LORD, contrary to his command. So fire came out from the presence of the LORD and consumed them, and they died before the LORD… Moses summoned Mishael and Elzaphan, sons of Aaron’s uncle Uzziel, and said to them, “Come here; carry your cousins outside the camp, away from the front of the sanctuary.” So they came and carried them, still in their tunics, outside the camp, as Moses ordered.

Notice that fire from the presence of the Lord “CONSUMED” them yet their bodies weren’t burnt and their tunics were still intact. The fire is the fire of truth and love which totally overwhelms those living in lies and selfishness, those who haven’t been healed in heart and mind to be like Jesus.

But what about passages in Revelation that speak about fire and brimstone? That sounds like a fire that burns the flesh, a fire of combustion, a fire that consumes bushes, temples, and people.  What about that?

The word translated brimstone or sulfur is the Greek word “thion,”  the neutered form of “thios,” which means divine, divinity, godhead and from whence we get the word theology (to study the divine). Therefore, the phrase translated “fire and brimstone” can more accurately be translated “divine incense” or “holy fire.”  Again, we are brought back to the understanding that it is the fire of God’s presence that is being depicted, not literal burning sulfur stones! Could it be that this is the same fiery stones Lucifer walked amongst before his fall as described in Ezekiel 28:14?  Could it be that this is the fire that Elijah rode in when the chariot of fire took him to heaven (2 Kings 2:11)?

Again the Bible leaves us in no doubt.  Read this passage which talks about burning sulfur carefully.  Noticing where it takes place:

Revelation 14:9-11 A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too, will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. He will be tormented with burning sulfur (holy fire) in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

Where does the suffering and torment take place? In the presence of the holy angels and the Lamb. And what kind of suffering is this? Mental anguish, suffering of heart, pain of mind, torment of psyche as each person comes face to face with the truth about themselves, their history, their opportunities rejected. They come face to face with the pain and suffering they have caused in contrast to the total love, grace, and goodness of God. And when each individual has reviewed the truth about their own lives, when the truth has burned through all the lies and becomes too overwhelming, when the psychological pain is too great they finally experience the full separation from God they have chosen and physically die the second, eternal death. And then, after all the wicked have died of their own unhealed condition, a literal, cleansing fire comes and melts the elements with fervent heat and the earth will be made new, the eternal home of the righteous (2 Peter 3:10-12).

I challenge you to examine the evidence for yourself, the evidence of God’s Word, the nature and character of His law of love, the nature and character of sin, and come to your own conclusion. Reject ideas that paint God as one who takes pleasure in the suffering of His creatures and acts to inflict punishment upon them. Accept the truth that Jesus revealed, for Jesus said, “If you have seen me you have seen the Father. The Father and I are One.” Do you see Jesus punishing people? Do you believe the Father is like Jesus? Then accept the truth. Sin kills. Sin destroys.  Sin separates us from the source of life and without God’s gracious remedy results only in ruin and death. God on the other hand is our Great Healer and will heal and restore all who trust Him. Won’t you let Him heal you today?

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Testimony 35

I am so pleased with the response your message is receiving at my church from the middle-aged to the young adults. I have given out 100 copies of the first two seminars and there are more request every week. One of my [class members] came to me after viewing the series, grateful and impressed with how easy the message was retained. He had been a Seventh-day Adventist in fear all his life, and felt like the scales were removed from his eyes after viewing the seminars. I am so impressed by the change I see in members who have received this message, we are in one accord. However, I am sadden by the negative response of the older people. I am verbally attacked anytime I talk about imposed laws, but I believe my mission is to enlightened everyone I can. I watch your Bible Study Class on YouTube every Friday night and I feel like I am apart of the class. All of you are in one accord and I am so blessed to have found you. I pray that all of you continue to spread this message and I am committed to doing my part.

Clara S., Westfield, MA, USA

 

Testimony 65

I have been tuning into your weekly study classes for a while now and wanted express my appreciation for the teachings that ha been a huge blessing in opening up the true message of the word. Viewing scripture under an imposed law theory always, without fail, raised more questions, concerns, and conflicting scripture interpretations that were discouraging at the very least. Looking at scripture through the design law lens has brought more truth to light for me personally and an understanding of our Heavenly Father that places Him “above all others,” where I am now more than thrilled to witness and serve Him.  I “stumbled” across this ministry a year or so ago and would only watch a few minutes at a time. But the more I listened and the longer I paid attention, the more my spiritual eyes were opened to the ever present truths of scripture. The comprehension of the great controversy and it’s origin by the lies perpetrated and perpetuated throughout the Bible on the attack of God’s character and government is truly priceless. Keep up the Good Work! Your servanthood is desperately needed in such a time as this!

Jeff D., Reading, MA, USA

 

Testimony 25

I just want to say thank you so much for your conversations via YouTube. I regularly tune in to your lectures, “Let’s Talk” sessions, and many others. Through these I’ve found greater depth and meaning to God’s word. Thanks for all that you do and please continue. I’m currently working in the middle of Silicon Valley at Stanford University. I feel like God really has me in the right place right now and I’m sensing that your teachings might be part of it.

B. F., Silicon Valley, CA, USA

 

Testimony 54

I had a lot of pressure, as a pastor’s kid, to conform and be “good.” I was good at being “good.” I thought my life was going along well until it all started falling apart and I could not figure out why! In my search for “why is this happening to me, God?” I came across your book, “Could it be this Simple,” and God started revealing to me the many distortions I held about His character, His principles, and how He has designed His universe to operate. I remember thinking, “Wow, I have had this all backwards.” I was happy and angry all at the same time. Happy to have the light of truth break through the darkness, revealing a wonderful, beautiful way of understanding God and His plan for His children, and angry, because I felt deceived and cheated by the church, my family, and myself!

My heart thrills when I listen to your bible study lessons. Literally I have gone from death to life. It is a journey I look forward to every day, as God reveals areas this distortion affects. Praise GOD! I will ever be grateful to God for this ministry and your cooperation with the Spirit!

Karen S., Portal, AZ, USA

 

Testimony 74

Thank you so much for opening my eyes. I’ve been through a lot of ministries that just didn’t show the love of God that I felt he was. You have helped me to begin the process of true healing. I thought I was “too far gone,” now I know there’s hope in Jesus, because he loves us beyond what we can comprehend. Thank you again for all you do. I truly appreciate it and pray more people find you (physical at your studio and through this website).

Dalio M.

Testimony 60

Just watched watched lesson 10 in the 1st quarter 2021 bible study classs on Isaiah. I want to thank you for your intellectual spirituality; it’s not an oxymoron! From the point of view of a teacher I also enjoy seeing how much personal pleasure you clearly take in not just tasting, but feasting on God’s word – it reminds me of Jeremiah not being able to hold it in! It makes me smile that your cup is so full and overflowing that you make it to Tuesday’s lesson (on a good day). It just goes to show the richness of God’s Word.

God bless the Come and Reason Team from our church here in Great Britain.

Andrew H., Great Britain

 

Testimony 62

I would like to express my thanks to the C&R team for creating a platform from which people can learn to trust in God and grow. My life is a witness to the effectiveness of this ministry. Without believing the truth about God as you have shown, I don’t know what my life would be like. I had given up on God helping me with certain sins – it was all useless. Given that the scripture is clear and God is so good, how could I have betrayed him so many times? I was a yo-yo christian; spinning up and down. My faith and enthusiasm was driven by discoveries/threats that prophecy is about to be fulfilled. But when I watched your “Healing the Mind” seminar, it was like a light finally went on. I could see God had no plan to hurt me, the danger came from sin, and that He is working to protect me and strengthen me. Thank you for allowing God to use you. The message God gave C&R saved my life!

Antony N. – Hobart, Australia

 

Testimony 50

After coming into contact with Come And Reason Ministries, I can finally say that many of my unanswered questions have fallen into place. I discovered that my view of God’s Law was “imposed laws and rules” with “imposed punishments” and that this was the major culprit of my many unanswered questions. Thanks be to God for using you and those around you to help us who have struggled with this “infection” of thought. I have now rejected the “imposed law” concept to fully embrace “Design Law”… to look thru “Design Law,” instead of “imposed law,” is a relief.

Viliami L., Australia

 

Testimony 69

After reading your book, ‘Could It Be This Simple,’ someone was explaining Christianity in a way that made sense to me for the first time in my life. One morning, I simply prayed “I’m sorry and I love you.” As soon as I silently said that, I could literally feel God’s presence and light flood down on me from above and fill me up with love and joy. I sat there crying my eyes out, because I was so overpowered with this feeling of love and joy. It was just so incredible. I hope that more people can read this book and get a blessing from it. It’s really amazing.

Rachael H.

Testimony 20

I just wanted to personally thank you for your teachings and insight into scripture. I came across your website via my cousin who suggested I look into “Healing the Mind” information. My youngest daughter has been struggling over the last couple of years and it all came to a head this spring. When I started listening to the “Healing the Mind” lectures my own life began to be transformed. I began sharing with all my daughters the concepts you laid out so clearly. I ordered your book and soaked it up. I just want to say “Thank You!” My walk with the Lord has been refreshed and renewed. Your obedience to the Lord is a blessing to so many.

R. K., Anderson, SC, USA

 

Testimony 13

I borrowed “Healing The Mind” DVDs from a friend and showed them at my home for a small gathering of women friends. Neither of my friends are Adventist, but they both enjoyed and embraced the messages you taught. In fact, one of the ladies prayed out loud in our group and that was the first time she had ever had public prayer.

J.B. ,Dalles, OR, USA

 

Testimony 43

Two years ago I stumbled upon your book, “Could It Be This Simple,” and then found “The God-Shaped Brain” videos on YouTube, your bible study class, and the ‘Come And Reason’ mobile app. I shared your book with a friend and after nine months of showing love, patience, and kindness this person has been changed by the love of God, too. The same love that healed me, I now express to other women in tangible ways, such as to a Baptist woman with high anxiety and childhood trauma. She was extremely happy and relieved when I shared about the so-called “judgment of God” and burning in hell. She had no desire to serve a God that was so harsh. I have repeated the phrase dozens of times to her. “What we believe has power over us, but we have power over what we believe…”

This message that you are sharing has changed my life. I will continue to serve other women and bring this message of God’s healing love to their lives by sharing your books, YouTube videos, and The Remedy Bible app. Keep up the good work. Don’t be discouraged. God is doing a mighty work in and through this ministry!

Jill L., Midwest, USA

 

Testimony 58

I have been watching your videos in The Power of Love seminar and I must say these have liberated me and have improved my relationship with the Lord. I am no longer terrified of him as I was before following your teachings.

Thando N., South Africa

 

Testimony 8

Thank you for the ministry you are sharing with us, it is a real blessing to us and especially to my husband and myself! You are encouraging us to think for ourselves and not just to except everything, without thinking it through, with God’s word!

M.K., USA

 

Testimony 32

The message [of Come And Reason Ministries is] for all Christians (and those who may become Christians) and not just Adventists or any other group. It is difficult to imagine why any [anyone] with intellectual and spiritual honesty could find fault with the way you explained the healing substitution concepts and the truth about God’s character, though I know some will reject and criticize. On behalf of those in our group near Tacoma, WA, thank you and your staff for all of the hard work and for sharing the Gospel in this manner. God’s message of healing love will be carried to the whole world and then Jesus will come – He promised it.

Terry U., Tacoma, WA, USA